12 March 1998 - New York Air National Guard Major Frederick Meyer.

[Excerpted from The Hull Thread][emphasis added].

All I am going to tell you is what I saw and what I did and if you are going to believe me you have to have some confidence in me as an individual - you have to know who I am before you believe what I say. So let me tell you just a little bit about myself.

Background:
Born and raised on Long Island - went to the University of Michigan - commissioned in 1962 as a naval officer - served first on a destroyer out of Mayport (sp?) Florida, went to the navy flight training program - became a naval aviator in August of 64, was sent to HC1, a combat SAR squadron based in San Diego, California. From there I went to South East Asia where I spent four years, two of them in combat in Vietnam. My job was to rescue downed American pilots from North Vietnam. I was stationed primarily on the fantail of a destroyer and usually positioned roughly 40 miles south east of Haiphong harbor. I would preposition - move close to the coast as Alpha strikes were going in, in 1967, and if someone's aircraft were hit - there's special radio frequencies which are used - normally a wingman or sometimes the pilot himself would alert the SAR people and we would bend the helicopter over and would start trucking in.

Now, when you fly a helicopter at 120 knots over North Vietnam in the 'iron triangle' - in the most heavily defended airspace in the history of warfare - you see a lot of missiles - you see a lot of flak - and I did - I saw a bunch of it - I know what it looks like. My purpose in being here tonight is to tell you that what I saw explode in the sky on July 17, 1996 was military ordnance.

The Explosions:
Now, we will talk first about .... I should tell you all the truth though - just in case you are inclined to believe me - I have to also tell you that I am a lawyer (audience laughter). I have to make full disclosure. There is one slide that I pulled out of your (Cdr. Donaldson's) presentation - it was a map of Long Island (Click for map). Now I am going to talk to you about: a streak in the sky; three explosions - two of which were ordnance; a little bit about aircraft ballistics; a personal conversation I had with Mr. Robert Francis and an executive of the NTSB who was in charge of the NTSB investigation; and my trips to the hangar at Calverton and the way I got in there.

At the time of the accident - I also was until last March a member of the NY Air National Guard, 106th Aerospace Rescue group. I've been a SAR pilot in Vietnam and in 1969 I resigned my commission - came home to New York - went to Law school and in 1976 moved to Southampton, Long Island - the fabulous Hamptons - where I established a small law practice. In 1980 the Unit at West Hampton airforce base - just 15 minutes down the road - was converted from a fighter outfit to a Search & Rescue outfit. They recruited pilots from all the services into the NY Air National Guard, which is a subsidiary of the US airforce and I was recruited to fly once again as a "weekend warrior" as a SAR pilot. I'm a navy master jumper - I'm a naval aviator - designated naval aviator - and I am a United States airforce command pilot. I hold the highest ratings the airforce awards. So those are my credentials as a pilot - as a rescue person. That night I was flying - I was not scheduled to fly - ironically I was supposed to be at that fundraiser where they took the picture of what may be a missile. I was going to go to Vince Canusio's (sp?) fundraiser - he was campaigning to be our town supervisor. Instead I got a call from the base that said "so and so can't show up for his flight - can you fill in we have got to get Chris Baur a night air-refueling or he turns into a 'pumpkin' - he passed the maximum time between events and he'll be unqualified". So I agreed. I went down to the unit - had a standard brief, weather, the mission for the night and went out - cranked up the aircraft. Now, it's the military - even though we are only weekend warriors - they tell you to take off at eight o'clock at night, you take off at eight o'clock at night.

The mission we are going to perform is a night air refueling on night vision goggles - we shut off all the lights - we fly in total darkness and we climb up and we fly a pattern - we fly along the beach. A C130 Hercules tanker aircraft flies over us - drops its flaps - slows down - streams hoses - we look up with our night vision goggles - we see it in the air - we join under its wing and then we practice plugging into the fuel nozzles and taking fuel in mid-air because if we were doing a deep penetration into enemy territory we would probably be tanked in total darkness - at night - very close to the enemy lines - just before we penetrate to make the pickup.

When one is "on the hose" with no lights - on goggles - the tips of the rotor blades if you are in perfect position are 22 feet from the tip of the horizontal stabilizer on the C130. So if you make an error of 22 feet and one inch - you're dead. This is the type of maneuver that you want to fly frequently so as to maintain a great deal of proficiency. So we were doing that - we were scheduled to do that - but of course to do that it has to be dark. You don't fly a night vision goggle mission in daylight because that's cheating. But we take off at eight o'clock and on July 17 sunset doesn't occur until about 8:40 pm - sometime about then. So what are we going to do for the first 40 minutes of the flight? Well, let's go up and practice a few instrument approaches to Runway 24, the airport at Suffolk and check off our proficiency on those practice instrument approaches - you know to repunch our clock - aviators know what I'm talking about - you have to have 3 precision and 3 non-precision approaches every 90 days. So we go out, we fly them and we log them and we meet all the statutory requirements.

I had just flown an approach and my co-pilot was now flying this approach we're coming down the electronic glidepath to the approach end - the threshold of the runway - I called to him that we were 100 feet above the altitude at which we must make a decision to either land or go around - I said "100 above" - He said "Rog" - and just at that moment the tower said "Cessna blank blank blank you're cleared for a right downwind to Runway 24". Well that's the runway to which we are landing. So I wanted to immediately see where that aircraft was that the tower had just cleared to land on the same runway to which I am making my approach. I leaned forward in my seat - put my head as close to the windscreen as I could and began scanning in front of the aircraft - in front of the helicopter - looking for a Cessna. And at that moment I saw a streak of light in the sky. Now at that moment - the reason I left this up here (Click for map) was to show you that I was probably right there (points to his position on diagram - witness #1). Here's TWA 800 up here at 13,000 feet - cruising along - and from where I am right there they are about 10 miles away at 13,000 feet. Twenty four hours later, actually 20 hours later, I estimated in response to a reporter's question that they were at 10 miles and approximately 10, 000 feet - that's pretty good for "seaman's eye".

So let's switch to the next slide... This is a drawing that I made. [Note from M.Hull - "Meyer showed his original hand-drawn diagram but unfortunately I do not have access to it at this time. The original drawing can be viewed on the video"]. I did this drawing for Dave Hendrix - well over a year ago - he is a reporter for the Riverside, California Press Enterprise - I'll tell you about that later - As I looked out of the front of the aircraft scanning for the Cessna, I saw a streak of light - right there (points to diagram) - moving very rapidly from my left-center farther to my left. It was red-orange in color - it resembled the path of a shooting star that you would see at night. You just go out on a clear night - put your head back and if you're patient enough you are going to see meteors coming through the atmosphere - shooting stars. They move very rapidly - they leave a trail of light. That's exactly what it looked like except it was red-orange in color and I saw it in broad daylight and one does not see shooting stars in broad daylight. There was a break - where it stopped - and then for an instant I saw nothing - and then suddenly right there I saw an explosion - high velocity explosion - military ordnance! - looked like flak in the sky - and I've seen a lot of flak - ours and theirs. It was military ordnance! A second and a half to two seconds later - farther to the left but down - I saw a flash once again - high velocity explosion - brilliant white light - like the old fashioned flashbulbs that we used to get one picture out of it and then it was gone - brilliant white light. A second and a half to two seconds after that - farther to the left but even lower - I saw, but I'm not certain, either one or two nearly concentric detonations - da da (sic) - and from those detonations emanated this hugh, slowly forming, low velocity explosion fireball. See this circle out here (indicating to diagram) - that's the size of the fireball. As we were flying over about my 2 o'clock position - the north west - the sun - the lower limb of the sun was just on the horizon. And if at that time I had held my hand out in front of me, I believe that the sun would have appeared to me at that point to have been about 4 fingers in diameter. If I turned to my 10 o'clock position to this fireball which was formed - it was 16 fingers in diameter. It was four times the size of the setting sun at that time. Of course it was much closer but it was huge - it filled the sky.

At that moment my co-pilot was the first to speak and he said - he's an experienced officer - coast guard helicopter pilot - former army helicopter pilot - now flies with the US Customs Office and is a weekend warrior with the Air Guard as I was - he said: "Is that pyro?". I said "No pyro I've ever seen, let's go take a look". I had never seen the aircraft - let me make that point. Also, let me make the point that when you fly a helicopter and you want to hear anytime past 25 years of age, you wear earplugs stuffed in your ears and you put the helmet sound suppressors over the top of them to protect your hearing. We hear nothing in that aircraft but the intercom and the radios. So I never heard any explosion or any noises associated with what I saw in the sky - totally silent.

The Search:
We called the tower at that point and said that we see a fireball off the beach and we are going south to investigate - clear us out of the control zone - we accelerated from 90 knots - which is about 105 mph up to about 160 - 165 mph - we're flying a Black Hawk helicopter - they're fast! We began heading out on a heading roughly 180 at max speed directly toward the point on the ocean where we could guess that the fireball was going to impact the ocean. When it impacted I was very surprised because this hugh thing was burning and when it landed in the ocean I expected it to be quenched. It was not. It impacted the ocean - threw a wave out - the ocean was very calm - threw ripples out and continued to burn. This was a lake of fire, probably 3 acres in size, burning with flames 50 feet high. I know it was 50 feet because I hovered the helicopter along side - looked over the top - read the radar altimeter and it read 50 feet. We immediately knew we had some kind of a disaster, but we hadn't seen an aircraft - none of us had seen an aircraft. As we approached the fireball impacted the ocean just about as we were approaching the barrier island - the barrier beach that runs along the south shore of Long Island. It was about where my feet are on the rudder pedals and I estimate that about an eight of a mile in front of the helicopter. As we proceeded out over the ocean toward the fireball I could see more debris falling from the sky. I told my helicopter pilot to flare it and slow down so that we would allow the debris to fall in front of us - we wouldn't fly under it and get it meshed in our rotor system. At that moment I remember a picture - and the picture troubled me - and later I will talk to you about it.

We went on - we approached the windward edge of the burning lake of fire - we couldn't move downwind and go around because there was so much smoke that it would have probably suffocated our engines and it might have suffocated us so we couldn't go downwind. We worked around the upwind hemisphere of the lake of fire and the first thing we saw were four bodies. So we knew we had a catastrophe which involved human beings. But all the debris we looked on was in such tiny pieces that we couldn't identify anything and say it was an airplane. We looked for several minutes and we checked the bodies - I don't like to talk about the conditions of the bodies but three of them were decapitated and one of them was not. We checked him very carefully and there were no signs of life - we proceeded on. A few minutes later - perhaps 2 - 3 minutes into our search - we finally saw a section of that white plastic window liner that you see on airliners - about maybe four feet long - that had two of those window holes that you see on airliners that the shades slide up and down - that was the first piece large enough that we could identify and say ok we have got an aircraft here - either an upscale business jet or it's a commuter. There are Grumman Gulfstream 3s flying into East Hampton or the neighboring town all the time. ...... So we knew we had some kind of a commuter or business jet and we radioed that to the C130 that was airborne - they too were doing other proficiency maneuevers waiting for the light to fade so that we could do the night vision goggle ....They were down the beach approximately 15 miles - they saw the fireball - they saw nothing prior to the fireball - they turned when they saw the fireball and came at 1,000 feet to investigate - we were of course down between 50 and 100 feet. I called to them - told them not to overfly the site because of the debris - they made a great circle around the area and there was communication going on between us and the 130.

The first thing we did was we marked the position of this lake of fire. We have a very sophisticated navigation system in this helicopter. This helicopter cost $12 million per copy and it's got everything and we thank you - we thank the taxpayer (laughter). It has an INS, a GPS and a doppler system that are computer integrated so that if one fails the other will take over. ..... It enables us to give you a position in Lat and Long within 1/100 of a minute of arc ..... At 40 degrees north Latitude, that's in the neighborhood of 86 feet - that's how close we can get our position - within 86 feet.. We gave the position of the main debris field, the main impact area where the lake of fire was located, to the C130 radio operator who wrote it down. Later on as we continued to search for bodies and find them and debris we noted - Chris had seen the tail section of the aircraft fall out of the smoke plume before the fireball struck the surface of the ocean and there was about a half a mile, I think, maybe a little more, between the major impact area and the area where the tail section had fallen. We flew over that area - we marked it - we gave the Latitude and Longitude to the radio operator in the C130. [end excerpt]

Major Meyer's Own Press Graphic

Witness Meyer was interviewed by an NTSB Witness Team on 11 January 1997, six months after the disaster and over a year before his above personal detailed presentation. The NTSB interview was transcribed and is available for review by clicking here.

Meyer stated during the NTSB Witness Team interview, referring to his helicopter crewmates and the falltime of Massive Fireball flames to the surface: "But all 3 of us asked each other, how long do you think it talk - - - took to fall? And we all three said, about 10 seconds. And - - I mean that's just crazy, but it gives you some idea of the - - the fact that when you observe things sometimes your - - your timing mechanism is off".

Why did he later consider the estimated 10 seconds falltime to the surface of the Massive Fireball flames that he and his crewmates were in agreement about right after the disaster took place "crazy"? Because he later learned the altitude where the Initiating Event took place and realized the Massive Fireball flames could not have fallen to the surface in 10 seconds from 13,000 feet.

But what he saw did not take place anywhere near 13,000 feet. It took place at about 5500-7500 feet and it took place 30+ seconds AFTER the 747 started coming apart well over a mile higher in the sky - and about 2 miles distance horizontally.

Witness Meyer did not and could not have seen a "flak" shootdown of the airliner at 13,800 feet at 8:31:11 only 3-4 seconds before he saw the reportedly 2000 feet in diameter Massive Fireball explosion fill the sky between 5500 and 7500 feet at approximately 8:31:47.

Major Meyer describes his thoughts when observing the streak of light, during that interview by the NTSB Witness Group.
[excerpt][emphasis added]
"I saw to -- in front of me and slightly to my left of dead front I saw a streak of light in the sky. I have no idea what it was. And my reaction when I saw it was, what the hell is that? I observed it for somewhere in approximately three to five seconds moving in a gradually descending arc -- sort of a gentle descending trajectory. Similar to that which you would observe at night if you observed a shooting star. The difference is that it was red-orange in color and it was broad daylight."
Source.

What did Major Meyer and his crewmates then believe they had seen?
[excerpt][same source][emphasis added]
"In the first place we didn't know what we had. I think we speculated that we might've had a mid-air because we know from here a lot that aircraft from Easthampton Airport and Montauk Sky Portal and aircraft from west of here fly the beach, and they look at the mansions along the beach. And we know that it's very common to have aircraft flying at 1,000 to 2,000 feet, east and west, right at each other along this beach. It's very dangerous. It's all VFR traffic. It's unregulated. The only regulation at all occurs when they fly through the southern tip of a control zone. They'll call this tower for clearance through the control zone. They'll say, all right. I'm at 1,500 feet. And the tower will tell them, well, you got another guy westbound and he's at 1,500. So, why don't one of you change altitude. so -- Mid-airs are -- the potential is always there. It's a very dangerous situation. We thought we had one."

____________________

Witness Meyer reportedly says "I suspect that Bill Donaldson was murdered."
Yahoo TWA 800 Forum
Message #8272
From:Richard Savage
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 5:17 am
Subject: Fritz

Here's something I got from Major Meyer.

Rick; I'm not "sick" of this stuff, but I do have two children to raise alone and don't have the time some folks have. I encourage all to keep the fires burning. The most serious consequence of this tragedy is how effectively our government deceived the people. We must expose them. !) I have not conducted an investigation; I have been privy to others conducting investigations whom I shall not name since I suspect that Bill Donaldson was murdered. Lisa Perry is the best witness of all I have interviewed. However , she fears for her safety and is being urged by her husband and family members to " keep a low profile". She gave us the details of her observations in Oct. '96; long before careful investigation confirmed everything that she said. The time frames must always be discounted because, it seems , adrenalin changes one's internal clock. The three persons in my A/C all concurred 2 days later that we thought the entire sequence took about 10 seconds. I won't give any info to anyone about her since I don't know you, and believe she is in real danger. At least two persons key to this inquirey have died mysteriously. Mike Wire has been willing to come forward before. I shall ask him if he wants to communicate with you. However I will explain to him that I do not know your background and cannot vouch for you. .FCM

The "Missile Witnesses" Myth